Original Daoist meaning of Hundun is harmonic wisdom - as the secret of 3 in 1 unity - eternal complementary opposites. googlebook link
But an approach more in harmony with the mystical "naturalism" of the Daode jing suggests an even broader range of archaic associations and images, especially in relation to the meaning of the ideas of "one" and "three."
In Western scholarship as early as 1891, C. De Harlez remarked that hun "is generally rendered 'chaos, chaotic,' But the choice of this term is unfortunate.
N. J. Giardot
1 hour ago, Wu Ming Jen said:Void is yin yand is chaos in the negative sense
Here it is necessary to speak of the paradoxical idea of an "ordered chaos" since the idea of hun is not presented as an absolute chaos, disorder or confusion. Rather, as it seems manifest in these passages, there is a harmonious "order" of life and time inherent in the Daoist idea of the "chaos" before creation.
Myth and Meaning in Early Daoism examines some of the earliest texts associated with the Daoist tradition from the comparative history of religions and finds a thematic and soteriological unity rooted in the mythological symbolism of hundun, the primal chaos being and principle that is foundational for the philosophy and practice of the Dao as creatio continua in cosmic, social, and individual life. Dedicated to the proposition that ancient Chinese texts and traditions are often best understood from a broad interdisciplinary and interpretive perspective, this work when it was written challenged many prevailing conceptions of the Daode jing and Zhuangzi as primarily “philosophical” texts without any religious significance or affinity with the later sectarian traditions. While controversial and at times playfully provocative, the methodology and findings of this book are still important for the ongoing scholarship about Daoism in China and the world.
Myth and Meaning In Early Daoism
There is a lot of confusion about these very simple yet radical concepts!!https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1908977108In the beginning, there was simply a nothingness, an ultimate non-being (wuji) or pregnant chaos (hundun).
As I have pointed out - the Tai Chi IS the wuji and yet even Taoist "experts" get this wrong. Fortunately some know the secret.
Actually you are preaching a later Song Dynasty corruption - there was no Wu chi symbol before the Song Dynasty, just the Tai Chi symbol. I have gone into detail about this expose in my pdf and on my blog. So you are making a common error that even supposed academic experts on Neidan make! haha. Here is the response I got from Pregadio:1 hour ago, Wu Ming Jen said: Void is yin yand is chaos in the negative sense. wu chi gives birth to tai chi.
Hello,All I can say at the moment is:(1) Wuji is a stage above Taiji. It is, as you say, a "static" timeless Emptiness.(2) Zhou Dunyi 周敦頤 does not discuss this stage. He only says it is the root of Taiji.(3) In the Daoist interpretation of the “old” Taiji picture, the empty circle at the center is the Wuji.(4) The purpose is to show that, at the center of Yin and Yang, there is Emptiness.(5) This means that Yin and Yang allow Emptiness to operate (用) in space and time.(6) Unlike Neo-Confucianism, Daoism says that Wuji and Taiji are ultimately equivalent.I completely agree with you that there is a connection between cosmology and music.
Fabrizio Pregadio <firstname.lastname@example.org>
4:53 PM (56 minutes ago)
From the point of view of Wuji, there is no difference with Taiji. — From the point of view of Taiji, it is lower than Wuji.This is the mystery about which all traditions speak about.Fabrizio
5:14 PM (37 minutes ago)
5:16 PM (35 minutes ago)
I don’t know why Zong Mi shows the Taiji without the “empty circle” Maybe he wanted to show something else.
He stated that the "hub" was the Emptiness and the yin-yang then revolved around that hub.
But that is not the oldest image of the Tai Chi - it is a later Song derivation.
So here is the oldest image of the Tai Chi.
Notice the difference.
NO HUB OF EMPTINESS.
It's yin-yang all the way down.
Now last night I posted the discussion of the "later" image of the Tai Chi with the supposed hub.
The author who made that image spent his life clarifying that Wuji IS Taichi.
"The Emptiness from which existence comes forth is the central hub." p. 5
Pregadio is relying on the wrong meaning of the original Tai Chi symbol.
So then Buddhists cling to Pregadio using terms that lead Buddhists to incorrectly claim Taoism is based on a static timeless origin of reality - and that immortality means a person exists in this timeless realm and then interacts from this static timeless realm into the "illusion" of spacetime.
I have explained in great detail why this is not accurate but the above image difference simplifies the argument and clarifies the error that Pregadio made. See the side bar of this blog for more details on why wuji is Taiji.
In the Theory on Yuan Qi of Taiji: "Taiji refers to the state of integrated yuan qi before the separation of heaven and earth. It is the great beginning and the great one." The state before the "separation of heaven and earth" is "wuji" which is mixed and blurry, when qi is generated and distributed to make "yuan qi integrated as one," namely "taiji."
If you read the essay I referred to (Zhu Xi's Metaphysical System and the Role of the Taji (Great Ultimate) by Kim Han-Sang, 2013) it is quite clear Zhu Xi is emphatic that Taiji is wuji - at the same time. Not "prior." For me this completely is understandable in terms of noncommutative phase. As you state, in alchemy there is "forward" and "backward" processes at the same time as continual processes. That is noncommutative phase.
You have agreed about music theory and taoism which is my specialty. There is a very amazing cover-up of noncommutative phase in music theory. So I tried to explain this to you. But Louis de Broglie rediscovered this with his Law of Phase Harmony. So if shen is light, then when shen is turned around, then time is zero but, as de Broglie discovered, there is still noncommutative phase that is from the future - as quantum entanglement and also as reverse entropy energy.
So Zong Mi emphasized that qi, from the Zhou Dynasty character, qi means to put shen under jing or fire under water to create steam. So when the light is turned around, the shen is put under jing to create steam as reverse entropy - or qi energy that is what Master Yan Xin calls a "virtual information field." So it is the secret of reversing aging, bigu, levitation, precognition, yang shen, etc.
So in science it is now stated EPR=ER which means that 4D spacetime arises from micro quantum virtual black holes, as Noble physicist Gerard t'Hooft states (Feb. 2017). So the neidan (qigong) masters can leave their bodies at will by turning the light around, so their individual spirit merges with universal spirit, as zero time of light. Again light has no rest mass but does have a 'Hidden momentum" that is reverse entropy phonon energy - and so this is why it is stated Yuan Qi is formless and the Taiji. In other words there is continual motion of qi energy as the Taiji that is wuji at the same time. There are two time clocks - one from the future that then changes the past to harmonize the present.
Zhu Xi's Metaphysical System and the Role of the Taji (Great Ultimate) by Kim Han-Sang, 2013.
Although Zhu Xi learned of the Taiji as 'the principle of origin of the universe' from his teacher Li Tong as early as in 1161....It was under the influence of Zhang Shi that Zhu Xi came to consider Taiji in connection with Xing....Taiji is not seen as some primordial undivided material stuff or matter, but clearly is stated as being the metaphysical Dao, as well as containing all the principles of movement and quiescence, and of yin and yang....
Taiji is just the li of all things in the universe....Even before heaven and earth have yet to exist, there must first be this li.
Behind the movement and quiescence is the principle of movement and quiescence and this is what is known as Taiji.
However, the reason why the [Diagram of the Great Ultimate] talks of "Indeterminate yet the Great Ultimate" and says that "Taiji is originally wuji" is not because wuji gave birth to Taiji after wuji, or because wuji existed before Taiji.
Taiji is the metaphysical Dao ....Taiji is that metaphysical entity that is one with the world of change and regulates it while accompanying it, without undergoing change itself.
wuji serves to define the character of Taiji as without form, but characterized by the presence of principle.
Taiji as wuji is not a primordial material substance - it is also different from the Buddhist notion of emptiness. It is the ground-providing principle behind phenomena that allow transformations in the phenomenal world to occur.
When t’ai chi is at rest, yang and yin are united;
when t’ai chi is in motion, the two opposing forces separate. Herein
lies the secret of immortality.