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"The universe and I came into being together; I and everything therein are One."

"If then all things are One, what room is there for speech? On the other hand, since I can say the word 'one' how can speech not exist? If it does exist, we have One and speech -- two; and two and one -- three(14) from which point onwards even the best mathematicians will fail to reach (the ultimate); how much more then should ordinary people fail?">"

- Chuang Tzu, 300 BCE

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Sunday, July 9, 2017

What's with the Neo-nazi claim that Crete Minoan culture was Aryan?

Can you find one mention of the Aryans in the 10 peer-reviewed science studies of the ancient Greeks?

Nope - because there is none.

haha. You're the one confused - the source you keep relying on did not even know that Strabo referred to the Tocharians in Bactria!!


I didn't just "cut and paste" - I read and analyzed peer-reviewed science.

4 hours ago, Nungali said:
You seem confused .  Why should DNA evidence and linguistic evidence  show that IE languages and culture IS  isolated from near east farming ?

You dont seem to realise what you are arguing ... which is a shame after all the racing around the internet you dd looking for evidence that you seem to think supports whatever it is you are trying to say . ....  and all that copying and pasting ( not to mention the highlighting and playing with the size button .

I especially liked the bit where you seemed surprised when you discovered there were 'waves of farmers' and others coming into an area.

Not only that ....  hold o to your hats folks  a giant revelation is about to be made ;

people also , just might have ... gone in and out of areas and back and forwards !  :o

Its a simple  exercise to track movement ; up out of Ethiopia , follow the coast line, as I said earlier , cross the two sandbars over the red Sea and Persian Gulf entrance .   Tracking the coast is a good way to go east west there without getting lost. Ingress to the north was up the  Red Sea and the Persian Gulf, into Mesopotamia .  Or cross the sand bar and keep going along the coast to the east and you get to the North Arabian Sea  shore line , one can ingress north there as well,

Then you get to the Indus , after that the coast goes south .  The Indus and  areas west offer ingress up and over into lower Central Asia  another good settlement area .  All well before the bronze age .  Keep going and you in the Steppe , or take a right and into China ....   you are either following land forms or the coast east west ot going north south using the stars ( which you cant do going east west )

All the routes were already well established and people going back and forwards, then  we are heading towards the Bronze age and sea travel .   Places like Dilman , between  the Indus centres and Sumer and Qatar, back across the water shows  Babylonian  presence .

The next stage was a re-meeting in Central Asia, the Steppe people came 'down'  the indus people came 'up'  ( there were trading centres in Central Asia showing signs of early Indus culture )  there were people already living there (in Places like Kara- kum (now) desert .  Then a   ' culture'  or a 'connection between people'  started to develop, that was later  to be known as Aryan , named after the country they first formed that cultural connection 'hub'  and or  enclave .

The PIE languages may have been developed as a 'trade language'

The influences  out of PII culture  were equally  cyclic, 'in and out'   ..... SOME  of those influences went into Europe and joined in with other influences there or coming into it .

Just as several components came together to form the 'Aryans '

One must really get away from all this  straight line , orderly progression models  ...  (  especially if one  professes to be a Daoist or  understand 'the void'   ;)  )

Can you find one mention of the Aryans in the 10 peer-reviewed science studies of the ancient Greeks?

Nope - because there is none.

haha. You're the one confused - the source you keep relying on did not even know that Strabo referred to the Tocharians in Bactria!!


I didn't just "cut and paste" - I read and analyzed peer-reviewed science.

Why should DNA evidence and linguistic evidence  show that IE languages and culture IS  isolated from near east farming ? 

Why are you even asking this question? The studies I posted are the latest science research and clearly answer that question.

Do I need to explain the "cut and pastes" I did? haha.

Was it too difficult for you to understand?

The science is quite clear now - if you want to ignore science - trust me, you're not alone. haha.

Let me summarize the evidence I presented.

1) - the North European and West European Indo-European language sources are DIFFERENT than Southeast Europe.

2) Farming on Greece was the first to develop in Europe and started around 9,000 BCE based on early farmers escaping the ecological destruction from farming in the Levant.

3) Farmers - that is white people - left Georgia, eastern Europe and migrated into the northern Caucacus - and then Yamnaya peoples - so 50% of the Indo-European Yamnaya tribe is from this farming group - separate from the Anatolian farmers.

4) The Yamnaya pastoralists were originally from the Anatolian earlier farmers - and migrated up from Iran into the Steppe.

5) Greeks are 20% or less Indo-European DNA while 30% hunter-gatherer DNA and 50% Near Eastern farmer DNA.

6) The Crete Minoan DNA goes back to 9,000 years old and the oldest farming archaeology in Greece is on Knossos from 6400 BCE - so this is long before any Bronze Age merging of Near Eastern anatolian farmers and the Yamnaya Indo-European pastoralists.

7) There was a 2nd migration of Near Eastern anatolian farmers into Crete that was before the Yamnaya Indo-European migration into Europe but after the mixing of the Yamnaya and Near Eastern farmers.

8) There is no "pure" Aryan culture or "Aryan" language as has been claimed on this thread - there is Caucasoid Phenotype of Northern Europe since light colored eyes are from albinism of AFrican Hunter-gathers - which was the original source for both Indo-Europeans and northern Europeans. Before 14,500 Europe was dark skinned - and Asian looking - with a major turn over after the Ice Age as migrations went into Asia and North America. Aryan as a word is from AFro-Semitic language so it's not even originated from IndoEuropean language. Aryan as a "nation" was much later than any of the IndoEuropean chariot cultures being referred to. So it's completely impossible that there was an "Aryan" Europe as has been claimed on this thread or an "old Aryan Empire" - and even though quote words were used to some how "code" the reference - coded language is often the norm for neo-nazi propaganda.

9) Taoism is traced back in archaeology to 6000 BCE in China - long before any "contact" with IndoEuropeans and so any claim that Taoism is from IndoEuropeans is false. Sure could the word "Tao" have an IndoEuropean origin? Does Lao Tzu refer to the "hub" of a wheel with "spokes" - like a Chariot's wheel? The Shang used the chariot ceremoniously and it was adopted from IndoEuropean culture - and with the Zhou the Chariot became a means of amassing armies of power. But Taoism itself is much older and from African roots.

10) Before 8,000 BCE Europe was also African in culture - and so it's not surprising that Taoist alchemy principles are found archaeologically from 6000 BCE. Sweden was African in culture up to 5,000 BCE. White skin is only 10,000 years old at the latest since light colored eyes is alibinism without necessarily having light skin color. This is why Africans also have green and blue eyes while having dark skin.

right but you're ignoring the research I already posted from a more recent 2015 study:

Europe's fourth ancestral 'tribe' uncovered

See above for "remedial education" on your part.
Now - considering that the supposition of INdo-European Language spoken is antiquated based on the new DNA research -
all we need to do is search the citations that referred to the 2013 study you cite.
So the follow up studies that take into account REnfrew's argument - still did not cite this later genetic study of the "fourth" tribe.
So now I have to check for the updates on that study.
I got 70 hits. So I searched "greece" within those hits. So I have 10 hits.
First hit:

The Steppe in the Early Bronze Age has been supported as a source of at least some Indo-European languages entering North-Central Europe at that time4. In southern Mediterranean Europe, however, our results suggest lower impacts. Any significant Steppe/northern component may have arrived in the south Balkan mainland and southern Italy only later, by which time Indo-European languages of the Italic, Greek and various Balkan branches had already established themselves there. This would suggest that a Bronze Age Steppe source may be not highly consistent with all branches of the Indo-European family (see also Broushaki et al.40).
2nd hit:
We find that whereas the lineages date mainly to the Neolithic in central Europe and Iberia, they largely date to the Late Glacial period in central/eastern Mediterranean Europe. This supports a scenario in which the genetic pool of Mediterranean Europe was partly a result of Late Glacial expansions from a Near Eastern refuge, and that this formed an important source pool for subsequent Neolithic expansions into the rest of Europe.
3rd hit:
The only Greek sub-population showing close genetic proximity to Cypriots (in terms of Y-haplogroup composition) is Cretan Greeks (Figs 3 and 4). It could be speculated that Cypriots and Cretans experienced very similar migratory events over the centuries, which were characterized by high influx from populations rich in haplogroups J2a and G2, and moderate in R1b, while very limited influx from populations rich in haplogroups R1a and I (Eastern and Northern/Central Europe), as well as from populations rich in J1 (Middle East) and E-M81 (North Africa).
4th hit:
We show that the people who brought farming to Europe were not part of a single population, as early farmers from southern Greece are not descended from the Neolithic population of northwestern Anatolia that was ancestral to all other European farmers. The ancestors of the first farmers of northern and western Europe passed through southeastern Europe with limited admixture with local hunter-gatherers, but we show that some groups that remained in the region mixed extensively with local hunter-gatherers, with relatively sex-balanced admixture compared to the male-biased hunter-gatherer admixture that we show prevailed later in the North and West. After the spread of farming, southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between East and West, with intermittent steppe ancestry, including in individuals from the Varna I cemetery and associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian archaeological complex, up to 2,000 years before the Steppe migration that replaced much of northern Europe's population.
5th hit: pdf link
I gotta type this one out:
Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegeans
The Mesolithic and Neolithic Period in Greece.
The earliest Early Neolithic sites in Greece are found at....Knossos (6700 BCE)
So that pdf linked to another pdf on Indo-European languages - 2015 - so later then your citation. HOld.
6th hit:

Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe
These results provide support for the theory of a steppe origin of at least some of the Indo-European languages of Europe.
O.K. - 7th hit:
Our results confirm that the earliest Neolithic central Anatolians belonged to the same gene pool as the first Neolithic migrants spreading into Europe. Further, genetic affinities between later Anatolian farmers and fourth to third millennium BC Chalcolithic south Europeans suggest an additional wave of Anatolian migrants, after the initial Neolithic spread but before the Yamnaya-related migrations. We propose that the earliest farming societies demographically resembled foragers and that only after regional gene flow and rising heterogeneity did the farming population expansions into Europe occur.
So that is interesting - a "third" wave of migrants - before the Yamnaya but after the initial wave.
Here we show that the genomes of Aceramic and Pottery Neolithic populations in central Anatolia belonged to the same group as northwestern Neolithic Anatolians and the first European farmers but were distinct from European and Caucasus foragers.
8th hit:
During the major warming period after ~14,000 years ago, a genetic component related to present-day Near Easterners became widespread in Europe.
9th hit:

Here we analyze 55 complete human mitochondrial genomes (mtDNAs) of hunter-gatherers spanning ∼35,000 years of European prehistory. We unexpectedly find mtDNA lineage M in individuals prior to the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). This lineage is absent in contemporary Europeans, although it is found at high frequency in modern Asians, Australasians, and Native Americans. Dating the most recent common ancestor of each of the modern non-African mtDNA clades reveals their single, late, and rapid dispersal less than 55,000 years ago. Demographic modeling not only indicates an LGM genetic bottleneck, but also provides surprising evidence of a major population turnover in Europe around 14,500 years ago during the Late Glacial, a period of climatic instability at the end of the Pleistocene.
10th hit:
We show that the earliest populations of the Near East derived around half their ancestry from a ‘Basal Eurasian’ lineage that had little if any Neanderthal admixture and that separated from other non-African lineages before their separation from each other. The first farmers of the southern Levant (Israel and Jordan) and Zagros Mountains (Iran) were strongly genetically differentiated, and each descended from local hunter–gatherers. By the time of the Bronze Age, these two populations and Anatolian-related farmers had mixed with each other and with the hunter–gatherers of Europe to greatly reduce genetic differentiation. The impact of the Near Eastern farmers extended beyond the Near East: farmers related to those of Anatolia spread westward into Europe; farmers related to those of the Levant spread southward into East Africa; farmers related to those of Iran spread northward into the Eurasian steppe; and people related to both the early farmers of Iran and to the pastoralists of the Eurasian steppe spread eastward into South Asia.
Now this last hit was the real zinger.
Remember I posted the linguistic evidence of an AFro-Semitic origin of the fetishized word "Aryan" that you all love to fixate on - Aria and Arya and whatever.
So the DNA evidence backs up that linguistic evidence. Indo-European language and culture is really not much isolated from Near East farming culture....

Aegean Neolithic populations can be considered the root for all early European farmers and their colonization routes. A key remaining question is whether this unbroken trail of ancestry and migration extends all the way back to southeastern Anatolia and the Fertile Crescent, where the earliest Neolithic sites in the world are found. Regardless of whether the Aegean early farmers were ultimately descended from western or central Anatolian, or even Levantine hunter-gatherer, the differences between the ancient genomes presented here and those from the Caucasus indicates that there was considerable structuring of forager populations in southwest Asia prior to the transition to farming.”
citing and discussing
which is in my list above, 4th hit.

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